Buffalo Flats, Ep. 10: Historical Feminism
We explore how Martine incorporates feminism into historical fiction in a way that respects history and characters, by finding friction points between the character’s desires and their experience of the world. Also, Erin emotes about corsets.
Links:
The book Erin references set in 15th-Century China is Lisa See’s Lady Tan’s Circle of Women.
The KidLit Craft Podcast is hosted by Anne-Marie Strohman and Erin Nuttall.
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] Erin Nuttall: Even though she lives in 1850, she is a feminist 'cause she doesn't like her corset.
[Music intro]
[00:00:10] Anne-Marie Strohman: Welcome to episode 10 of the Kid Lit Craft Podcast. This season we're taking a deep dive into Buffalo Flats, a YA novel by Martine Leavitt. Today we're focusing on historical feminism. I'm Anne-Marie Strohman and I write for children and young adults and also short stories for adults.
[00:00:28] Erin Nuttall: Hi, I am Erin Nuttall and I write for children and mostly young adults
[00:00:33] Anne-Marie Strohman: On Kid Lit Craft, we look at mentor texts to discover the mechanics of how writers do what they do, so we can apply it to our own writing.
[00:00:41] Erin Nuttall: And today we are talking about Buffalo Flats by Martine Leavitt. In this book, Rebecca Leavitt is our heroine. It takes place in the late 1800s in the Northwest Territories of Canada, and Rebecca wants nothing more than to be a landowner herself outright.
[00:01:03] Anne-Marie Strohman: Erin, let's start with some vocabulary. When you say historical feminism, what do you mean?
[00:01:09] Erin Nuttall: I think I just wanted to make sure we define historical feminism differently than the way that we think of modern feminism. Here we sit the beneficiaries of centuries of women pushing to get to be seen as equal. Not there yet. Just a little surprise for in case you didn't know, but we're getting there and we are much further than Rebecca was in her day. We have benefited from all of that, but Rebecca has not, and as we write historical feminist texts or historical texts with feminism, I think it is very important, if not essential, to write from the perspective that a feminist of that time would have.
So feminism is advocating for women on the basis of equality between the sexes. Historical feminism allows room for the historical time period, having characters maintain their historicity within that framework and still find ways to push for that equality.
[00:02:15] Anne-Marie Strohman: So just like you wouldn't want a Tesla in your 1890s story, unless you're doing some mashup, we're avoiding anachronism and having modern day feminism inside a historical text would be anachronistic.
[00:02:30] Erin Nuttall: Right. And you know, along those lines, something to think about that I see all the time is women complaining about their corsets. And that's fine. You can have some complaints, you know, maybe I don't love my underwire bra or whatever, but it's really, that's what they're used to and that's what they've been wearing and that's what they've expected to wear.
This is, it's not gonna be something that is gonna be as big a deal to someone who is in the future looking back at that, being like, whoa, that's pretty restrictive. They're not gonna see it that way. So if you're looking at situations, think about how someone who is considered a feminist in that day would think about it.
If you look at Abigail Adams, for instance, man, that lady was awesome. And she basically raised her kids on her own 'cause John was all over the place. And she had to decide to give her children the smallpox vaccine. That was brand new and nobody really knew a lot about vaccinations and whether she should do it or not.
And she did it on her own and risked her life and her children's life. Like this is a lady who is amazing, but this is what she said to John about when they were at the Constitutional convention. John, remember the ladies. So if we think about this woman who is so awesome, and then we see the part, what she actually said, you know, I'm gonna be like, Hey, don't forget that we need to vote too.
Right? Those are the differences that we can see. In historical feminism we need to think about where these women actually are. I think it does the reader a disservice, it does your character a disservice if you put modern day ideas and anachronistically into your story.
[00:04:24] Anne-Marie Strohman: And there is room for these mashups, as I mentioned, of bringing the modern and historical together. Like that absolutely can occur, but we're talking here about straight historical fiction.
[00:04:35] Erin Nuttall: Right. Yeah, and you know, you create a fantasy world, those people can think whatever you want them to think. I just feel like we owe a lot to the women who did the work before us, and we shouldn't shortchange them by ignoring that work and putting them in our shoes instead of their own.
[00:04:57] Anne-Marie Strohman: There's a term, the world as it is. Can you tell us what you mean by that?
[00:05:01] Erin Nuttall: What I mean in this context is that when we're writing historical fiction, we need to establish what it looks like to be a woman in that world, because I may not understand what it's like to be a young woman in the Northwest Territories of Canada in a religious environment in the 1890s.
I'm reading a book right now that takes place in 15th century China. I certainly don't know what it's like to be a woman in that world. And so establishing that for the reader helps the reader know where that character is coming from.
[00:05:38] Anne-Marie Strohman: So we've talked about how this book is written in close third person. It's a third person narrator, but it's as if the narrator's sitting on Rebecca's shoulder and can see into her mind and report what's there.
And there are a lot of ways that Rebecca pushes back on the world as it is. Let's start with that, with what women think.
[00:05:55] Erin Nuttall: Okay. So Rebecca decides she wants to be a better person and initially decides that she is going to be like her mother in every way. So she says, “Mother expressed few opinions. Rebecca had an abundance of opinions and rarely hesitated to bless others with them. Now, she decided she would emulate her mother in all womanly virtues and say only the most ladylike things, or nothing at all.”
And then despite her goal uh, to not speak, Rebecca continues to express her opinion. So here we have someone who sees what the ideal woman is in that day and decides that she's gonna push on that a little bit. She's not going to let the men have all the opinions. She's going to share her own opinion.
She says “her determination to say only ladylike things had lasted all of a minute. But if her father and brothers had homesteads, why shouldn't she?” So we have kind of two things going on there. We have her saying, hey, I'm gonna tell you my opinion even though I know I shouldn't.
And then her opinion's gonna be like what? Excuse me. You want a homestead? So. Talking about historical feminism isn't to say that we can't write feminist characters into historical text. When we do so, we should recognize the boundaries and let them push.
[00:07:24] Anne-Marie Strohman: In this case, Rebecca shows us what the world is, how the world should be, kind of what that ideal is, and then she has thoughts that differ and then she expresses those thoughts. So she's doing a number of things in that scene. How does she challenge this? The sensibility and rules of the society?
[00:07:43] Erin Nuttall: Well, so her parents both come from England and so they are immigrants who first immigrate to Utah and then from Utah into Canada.
So they talk about this as a family and her father said, “My father in England would never have dreamed of such land and such dominion for his son and my sons.” So we see this idea of the importance of land to the family, to the immediate family, to the greater family, and to the future family.
And then Rebecca says. “And your daughter, Father. Someday I will have the opportunity and dominion of my own. I have found a quarter section of land I would like.” So she tells him that he can expand his ideas 'cause she already has and she has a dream
[00:08:34] Anne-Marie Strohman: And she's very directly challenging the patriarchy there, right? We have a patriarchal structure of father to sons who becomes a father of sons. And she says, hmm, insert daughter here. Right?
[00:08:46] Erin Nuttall: Exactly.
[00:08:46] Anne-Marie Strohman: The system we have is not working for her. She's making a claim that she's entitled to more.
[00:08:52] Erin Nuttall: Right. And she does it in a way that totally fits in with her opinionated kind of bossy character. Actually she's not bossy. She's just opinionated and she has big dreams.
[00:09:04] Anne-Marie Strohman: That word dominion is really interesting.
[00:09:08] Erin Nuttall: Yes, it is. It is a scriptural reference. So it, we will talk about this in a future episode. But it comes from the biblical idea that God gave dominion to man over the earth.
And so, because they're in this religious family, then they're going to say something like that with dominion rather than, Father, I'm taking down the patriarchy. She just says, Father, I'm gonna have a dominion too. And she pushes back on the idea that it's only for men and not just for all humans.
[00:09:41] Anne-Marie Strohman: So there's an example where she does this really specifically too, right?
[00:09:45] Erin Nuttall: Yes. So the family continues with this idea of dominion. And, so after Rebecca says that she would like an opportunity for dominion of her own, her brother says, “ Women don't have dominion, Rebecca,’ Zach said, ‘they are part of what a man has dominion over’”, and I love Rebecca's response. She says, “‘Don't you say that Zach,’ she said in a rush, ‘I'm going to have my own land and I'm going to have dominion like nobody's business.’” So. I love her right there. She pushes back on her brother. She pushes back on the ideas and she does so in a funny way.
[00:10:23] Anne-Marie Strohman: And it also seems too, that humor there kind of cuts off a larger philosophical discussion of dominion and man's dominion and what that means, right? We get straight to the point, which is she thinks she should have dominion.
[00:10:38] Erin Nuttall: Right? Right.
[00:10:39] Anne-Marie Strohman: She is challenging the status quo with that.
[00:10:42] Erin Nuttall: Yes, and like we saw in our last episode about humor adding that little funny bit at the end I mean, it shows how important it's to her, like nobody's business, but it's also because it's funny, it takes a bit of a sting out of her words for her brothers and her dad.
[00:11:00] Anne-Marie Strohman: So all this goes back to Rebecca being a woman and particularly a single woman.
[00:11:06] Erin Nuttall: Right. So this is all actually one scene that I've kind of broken up to look at this. So then right after she tells Zach she's gonna have dominion like nobody's business, her dad responds like this: “Father shook his head. ‘Single women can't homestead Rebecca.’ His voice was patient. ‘The law says, so you will have your own land by way of your husband when you marry.’” So then this is how Rebecca responds. “‘I will go to the land office and make inquiries,’ Rebecca said. This almost constituted backtalk, which was forbidden, but Mother saved the day. ‘I believe I will have enough butter and eggs to sell in town in a couple of days,’ she said.”
And so Mother backs up this idea and that she will go to the land office with Rebecca. And she has a reason other than just the land office to go. So that again, softens it a little bit.
[00:11:55] Anne-Marie Strohman: And it's really a way of empowering Rebecca.
[00:11:58] Erin Nuttall: It is. Yeah. And Rebecca's not trying to break her world. She just wants what she wants, that piece of beautiful land.
[00:12:07] Anne-Marie Strohman: It seems like she's trying to push the boundaries to give herself more room to exist within this society.
[00:12:13] Erin Nuttall: Yes, she is for sure.
[00:12:15] Anne-Marie Strohman: So in addition to seeing Rebecca challenging norms, Martine introduces other characters that challenge these patriarchal systems, as we just mentioned, Mother there, but there are other characters too, right?
[00:12:27] Erin Nuttall: Yes. So her brother Zach gets engaged to Florence and through most of the book, Rebecca is kind of overawed by Florence and she misreads her brother's interest as annoyance at Florence because she is a known feminist. And they don't really use that word, but she has ideas. So after they get engaged Rebecca sits at the table with Florence and stared unabashedly.
“Zach engaged into such an extraordinary creature.” And then Florence says to her, “‘I hear we are sisters in suffrage. Rebecca hadn't known she was until that moment, but now she knew. ‘Yes,’ she said, ‘will it ever happen?’” The other thing that she talks about is how comfortable Florence was in her own skin.
“Florence was almost as tall as Zach and looked people over with comfortable acceptance, which Rebecca knew could only be done by a person who comfortably accepted herself.” So there is a lot going on here and we have Rebecca getting another person to look to for being a better person, right? We have Florence who comfortably accepted herself.
That's the goal that Rebecca wants to get to, that she doesn't quite realize. That's where she wants to. And then we have Florence openly talking about things like suffrage. And so it gives Rebecca the opportunity to say, wait a minute. That's how I feel too. Yeah. And kind of evolve as a person, as a feminist, as someone who wants to make the world a better place,
[00:14:11] Anne-Marie Strohman: And it seems really smart for Martine to bring in a secondary character who's outside the family, who then comes into the family, and it shows that possibility for Rebecca isn't just outside the family. It can happen within her family and be respected.
[00:14:27] Erin Nuttall: It also puts Rebecca in the greater world. This community is pretty insular. They are in the wilderness, basically, of the Northwest Territories. It's not a very populated place, but here we have Florence talking about women's suffrage. It's a big topic. It's a national topic. It's an international topic. And so it lets that bigness come into this tiny world,
[00:14:54] Anne-Marie Strohman: So we've seen in other episodes how Mother becomes an ally for Rebecca, and actually you just used that quote about Mother going to the land office with Rebecca. Does Mother's challenge of the status quo work its way into other areas of the story?
[00:15:08] Erin Nuttall: It does. And actually by the end of the book you'll see that Mother is the biggest feminist in the book. She just goes about it at a different way than maybe you or I would go about it. So if we're getting towards the end of the book and Rebecca goes to take the Sempels’ cow back to them. She gets there and she finds Sister Sempel, ss she's bruised and beaten, she probably has a broken arm. Her arm is looking really wonky.
And so she rushes home to tell her mother, and Mother listens. And then she invites her two daughters-in-law over for supper. Mother and Rebecca make what Mother calls an Esther feast, a meal to soften the heart, is what she says. And then Mother prays a blessing on the food, like a grace on the food.
This is how it goes. “Mother prayed the blessing, which was full of gratitude for her husband, who exercised his authority with persuasion along suffering, gentleness and meekness and love unfeigned. Father was blushing by the time his wife said Amen.”
And I don't know if you are familiar with the story of Esther, but she is a queen in Babylon or Assyria and, she needs to convince her husband, the king, not to kill all of her people, which are the Jewish people. And she's super scared. Potentially he has the right to kill anyone who comes before him, who hasn't been asked for, and she decides to do this to save her people. And one of the things she does is she makes this feast for her husband to soften his heart. And so it's a nice touch because they are religious people to have her mother use this story from the Bible. And also it shows the position that women are still in, in this place.
I mean, we had the dominion conversation. But Rebecca's dad's a good guy. He should want to rush over to Sister Sempel and save her from her husband, who's been beating her. But. That is not what is done in this community. And not just like this specific religious community, men can do what they need to do in their house, right?
And so Rebecca's mom is taking on this really big social injustice. And so. In the feast, Mother eats nothing. And then she tells her husband and sons about what happened to Sister Sempel. “Father's knife and fork were poised in the air above his plate. He looked at his wife, at Rebecca, at his sons, their wives, and back again at his wife. Rebecca saw that each of her brothers was concentrating on his own meal as if gold coin was hidden in it.”
So we have another little bit of humor. “‘You and I have long suspected what's going on there,’ Mother said in a voice that was like a mild breeze on a glacier field. ‘And now we have proof. It is time that he, that man, was held to account by someone his own size.’ Rebecca had never seen this woman before. So cool. So straight of back and high of chin. So powerfully armed by her previous decades of devotion to her husband and family speaking the unspeakable at the dinner table before them all.”
[00:18:28] Anne-Marie Strohman: Go Mom.
[00:18:29] Erin Nuttall: Yeah. She, she is doing it. Her husband says, there's a reckoning to be made by every man who mistreats, or God forbid, strikes a woman. But that's it. He's not the one to make the reckoning is basically what he says. And so, Mother continues and she and her daughters-in-law go into the barn and say they're gonna live there until they change, until their husbands change their mind.
[00:18:55] Anne-Marie Strohman: What? Go live in the barn?
[00:18:56] Erin Nuttall: Yeah, they're gonna live in the barn and, and Rebecca has to take care of them. And apparently Rebecca's not very good at that. And so after they've been in the barn for a few days, Father comes in to talk to Mother and he says, “do you want us all to starve?”
[00:19:19] Anne-Marie Strohman: Yeah, I mean, she kind of does, right? Like this is an act of protest.
[00:19:23] Erin Nuttall: This is an act of protest for sure. And she says, “I do not want you all to starve.” Well then, and this is, “do you want to break my heart?” She says, “I have no wish to break a heart that is so intimately connected to my own, but nor will I see a sister's heart broken, not only by her husband, but by all the men who knew and did nothing to protect her.” So you might think that that would convince him. But he, again, he says “a man's position at the head of the home.” Is God given, is what he says. “I despise such behavior, but surely it cannot be my place to interfere. Let her come to us.” And then “a man's position at the head of the home is God given.” “‘Is it?’ Mother said,” that is a big question right there. Then she continues and her knowledge of her religion and of her community and of the way that things could be better for women and the responsibilities that men have. It's just, it's astounding in its strength and its beauty. So she says, “‘Is it?’ Father took a step back.”
She says, “if so, a man's obligation to the happiness of his family is the reason it was given. And I have further to say, husband, if God has made you ruler over your own home, has it never passed your mind that I rebelled in my heart against this order every day. Every decision you have made without consulting me for good or ill, I have had to forgive you for. Did you never know there are things about you that I find hard to bear?” She goes on in this way, just this gentle, yet direct opening up of his mind of what it is like to be a woman in that situation. “The gentle delivery of her speech belied the content of it. ‘I told myself as a young bride that I would wait for the right time to air my grievances, and now that time has come. There is nothing in our doctrine that excuses you.’” That is so strong. “He rung his hat again. ‘You are right Liza’, he said” and this is her again. “If you are given office, it is for the purpose of blessing and serving your people, your family, me, your neighbor.’ Rebecca could see the skin beneath his beard was whiter than his whitest whiskers. She knew he was taking a beating. ‘I have said my fill’ Mother said, and she seemed to sag a little like she did after she'd laundered and rung out all the quilts.”
So, this works and they're able to go and save Sister Sempel. And there is a very dramatic thing that happens that you might feel like is the crisis point of this story.
But I personally feel like this scene between Mother and Father is that crisis point. Because it is where Mother, who Rebecca has always thought was literal angel on Earth, shows what an angel can really do and the power that she has and her ability to wield it in such a loving way is just astonishing.
[00:22:58] Anne-Marie Strohman: I love how this example is both personal, very much within this family that is within this particular culture. but there's also this example of collective action too, that she is bringing in her daughters-in-law to be in this protest. and I think that it works within the historical time period and it's kind of a precursor to what we know happens in the suffragist movement where women take collective action on a larger scale within society. I think it's great to have all of those kinds of historical examples in our historical fiction that will have large scale community action and will also have these more private, I mean, they're just in the barn and in the house. That private protest actually makes a difference in the world as well.
[00:23:52] Erin Nuttall: It does, and you can see that this conversation will bind Mother and Father closer together. Not tear them apart as you might think if you have mothers standing up for women's rights, but actually bring them closer together. And also Rebecca's brothers and her sisters-in-law and they save Sister Sempel and Rebecca herself.
And actually at first I was a little dismayed that Rebecca was also not in the barn. But she finally gets a handle on the cooking and makes these delicious pancakes and then is about to be like, look, I did it. And then thinks about her mother in the barn and leaves them on the stove until they burn.
And that is actually the straw that breaks her dad's back. And that's why he comes out. Do you want us to starve?
[00:24:39] Anne-Marie Strohman: And that is her personal act of protest, right? That she's not in the barn with her mother and sisters-in-law, but she is able to protest where she is with the means that she has available.
[00:24:51] Erin Nuttall: And I just thought that was so clever a way for Martine to do that because I think I would've just put all the women in the barn. But that gives Rebecca that personal protest 'cause if she just went to the barn, it would be a hundred percent Mother. And this way we have Rebecca taking action as well.
So that's something to think about. We have Mother being the hero of the story story, but then we have Rebecca taking personal action to aid the hero. She's doing the assist if we're gonna go from superheroes to basketball.
[00:25:30] Anne-Marie Strohman: So talk to me a little bit about how this historical feminism shows up a craft level. Like how are, if you're thinking of putting historical feminism into your historical novel, like what elements are you considering? Where is it gonna show up? How do you do it?
[00:25:49] Erin Nuttall: That is one reason I did the vocabulary word, the idea of world as it is because I think knowing the world that your character inhabits will help you to see where the friction spots are. Mother is not gonna be like, I need to take a train and go to New York and go shopping on my own right. Or whatever. That's not going to be a friction spot for her. And clearly taking care of her husband and her family, she feels is her responsibility. And she has done it for 20, 30 years now and done it cheerfully. I mean, Rebecca thinks she's an angel. And so where's the friction spot? And that friction spot is going to be Sister Sempel and throughout the book, and it's really not very often, and I think I talk about how often it is in a subplot episode, but it's a little bit in the beginning, a tiny bit in like the third mark, tiniest tiny bit at the right before the funny cow episode in the middle and then really not much. But we do see one or two sentences here and there of Mother asking Brother Sempel, how is his wife doing? Inviting her to a quilting bee, trying to check in on her. So we have this set up that we know Mother is worried about Sister Sempel.
And so that way when we find out Sister Sempel broke her arm, we know that's gonna be something that is gonna be super important to Mother. So that's a friction spot for her. Whereas for Rebecca, her friction spot is that she loves the land more than anything else and she wants a piece of it that is just for her.
And that's such a foreign idea that women, like at that time period to know that like you were owned, you were a piece of property, your children were not yours. But Rebecca's, that's her dream. She loves the land, she wants to own it. So there's a friction spot for her. This book I'm reading now, and honestly I don't remember the title, but it's takes place in 15th century China and the main character has learned some medicine from her grandparents. And she's, she. Foot binding? Fine. That's what it is. It's painful when you have to do it to your daughters, but it's not the thing that is her friction spot. Her friction spot is that she wants to help care for the people in her household and use these medicinal tools that she was given by her grandpa and grandma and her mother-in-law won't let her. So I, I think looking for friction spots rather than trying to blow up the world is a good way to, well, keep your story short, but also keep you in line with the history, because that is what our sisters did.
They made tiny changes in single homes most of the time. And then you grew up with a mom who did X, Y, Z. So then, that son, that daughter had a new view and it kind of just helps push the line of equality closer together
[00:29:01] Anne-Marie Strohman: Mm-Hmm. My kids are astounded that in my lifetime, it became possible for women to get credit cards.
[00:29:09] Erin Nuttall: Oh yeah, that is astounding.
[00:29:10] Anne-Marie Strohman: Like it was not that, it was a little bit before my lifetime, but it's astonishing.
[00:29:15] Erin Nuttall: Oh yeah. That is astonishing. And things like medical histories. Doctors used to talk to the men and not the women about the women's bodies. Like there's just, but I think when you're looking at it, there's just so many things. There's too many, like the, you know, there's just too many things. And so look for the things that cause real friction spots. And that's why I think, why maybe like the corset thing bugs me a little bit because, I just don't think that's gonna be the friction spot. I don't think that's gonna be what bugs the character the most. Their underwear? No.
[00:29:55] Anne-Marie Strohman: I think it depends on the character, right? There are gonna be some characters where that is the friction point. I’ve just watched recently Catherine called Birdie. Right? And that is a, it's character related, right? She wants to be out there climbing trees and running through the woods. And so a corset is a friction point for her whereas it wouldn't be for other characters.
[00:30:17] Erin Nuttall: To me it is a frequently, not always 'cause I do agree. I liked Catherine called Birdie. But to me that is frequent, a shortcut people use. It's kind of like the, and her stomach turned or whatever, right? Like it's a shortcut to say, even though she lives in 1850, she is a feminist 'cause she doesn't like her corset. You know? And so that's why I think it bothers me more than it feeling a little unrealistic is that I, I don't want that. There's so many things. Pick more things.
[00:30:53] Anne-Marie Strohman: Be creative, be creative!
[00:30:54] Erin Nuttall: Yeah. There's just so many places where it was wrong. Things that were happening, were not good for women. So let's, let's pick a different one.
[00:31:04] Anne-Marie Strohman: So Erin, what are you taking away from today?
[00:31:07] Erin Nuttall: Oh, I feel like I've said a lot on this specific episode because it is something that's really important to me. I want, I want girls and boys and everyone to treat each other equally. And I'm not a historian, but I do have a degree in history and I do want accurate history in books. As accurate as we can get. And so I think what I am taking away from this is how well Martine did historical feminism, is that she found those friction places and she utilized them within Rebecca's desire line. Mother's desire. We don't really know Mother's desire other than to be a good wife and mother 'cause that's all Rebecca sees. And then we get this fantastic desire of her wanting to make the world better and to use her skills to do so. What about you?
[00:32:11] Anne-Marie Strohman: I am taking away two things. One is the idea of bringing an outsider in as a way to expand the world of the main character. And then I really like your idea of friction points, of looking at places where I can create friction points or where they exist already to have the conflict surround those moments instead of trying to insert the cliche or manufacture something that's outside the scope of the character in the story. So Erin. What is your one beautiful sentence today?
[00:32:47] Erin Nuttall: All right. I felt like we should honor Mother. So at the Esther dinner, this is what Martine says, “Mother's gay swung in dignified containment from her husband to her sons and back again, the way a heavy church door swings solemnly on its hinges.”
[00:33:09] Anne-Marie Strohman: I love that. And I am so excited for our language and metaphors episode that's coming up. We're just gonna read all the metaphors from the book. It's gonna be a very, very long podcast.
[00:33:20] Erin Nuttall: It will be a very long podcast 'cause there's a lot of those.
[Music outro]
[00:33:25] Anne-Marie Strohman: Well that's it for today. If you're enjoying this podcast, you can find more content like this at kidlitcraft.com. Find us on social media @KidLitCraft, and you can support this podcast on Patreon. We'll be sending out Kid Lit Craft stickers to new subscribers for a while. We've also got t-shirts. You can find Kid Lit Craft t-shirts at Cotton Bureau. We'll have a link in the show notes too.
[00:33:50] Erin Nuttall: Please download episodes; like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen; and let your writer friends, and hey, why not all your friends know about this podcast? We can't wait to nerd out with you.
[00:34:02] Anne-Marie Strohman: Thanks for joining us. See you next time.
